not sure what to title this train wreck of a post!

[samantha]

This is probably going to sound terribly naïve and for all those further along on their way, I hope that isn’t grating.
Apparently I am submissive. Not that I didn’t have an inkling, but I haven’t been sure until recently. And quite honestly, even though I’ve been married for a dozen years, I was sexually inexperienced when we wed and carried around enough shame re: sexuality that I could not be honest even with myself about things. As well, there was just so much I didn’t even know existed and at this point, I am still sort of discovering stuff.

My husband and I have attempted to play around with spanking….I’ve said this in another post, but he just doesn’t really have it in him. Plus, I am not sure if spanking is really something you can do just for another person. Maybe someone can apply the physical act of spanking someone else and do it technically right, but I have this feeling that in order to get the psychological piece right, you have to want to do it.

Any way, a few weeks ago, and sorry if this is too graphic (???), I was having trouble, um, finishing things up in bed. I really needed him to do something to create a submissive feeling in me to finish…I’ve always just imagined things in my head to create that. I was really frustrated that things were taking so long for me. So he asks me, “what do you need?” And somewhere, I found my courage and said, “tell me that you are going to count to ten and if I don’t finish by then you are going to spank me”. There was stunned silence, then hysterical doubled over laughter on his part….not unkind mind you, more of the “who are you and what have you done with my wife?” kind of laughter. Then an “okay”. Except, his heart wasn’t in it and he didn’t spank hard enough. (we’d tried a little spanking before this so it wasn’t a completely new thing) And while I know this is something to be negotiated and no man is a mind reader, I hate having to tell him ideas of how to be more dominant. I want him to have a mind full of devious ways to compel me to submit, to make me feel that helpless feeling. I’ve sent him articles, e-books, short stories….it doesn’t help We’ve had a bunch of blunt conversations, and what I’ve learned is that while he loves me, wants to make me happy, he is NOT wired the same way I am.

So then later, when talking about it, he said something along the lines of “you are a total submissive”. To which I responded, “Really? Do you really think I am?” Again, laughter, and, “um sweetie do you realize what you asked me to do?” To which I proceeded to cover my face with my hands and wished the floor would just swallow me up.

So now, crap! Now I am really starting to know myself and be honest about what I want (even when I don’t really even know how exactly that would look and I have NO idea where the whole “you count” thing came from) and the love in my life is not a good match in this way.

All that to say, am I missing something? I mean, is there anything I can do other than what I have done already to help him learn to do what I need/want? Can someone “learn” the mental piece of giving spanking when they would probably rather not be giving one?
And then too, I have seen or read things online (thank you for the internet for all the things you are teaching me!) where submissive women do things like wear collars and look like they are being seriously injured or sleep in a cage. No judgement at all on my part, but I don’t get the appeal and that is NOT my thing. So, are there different kinds of submissives? There must be, right? I mean, it’s not so different than dancing, no? I am a social dancer, but I hate ballroom dancing and love other forms of social partner dancing. I identify as a dancer all the same even though I don’t like all kinds of dancing. Is being submissive kind of the same?

I think for me, the appeal of submissiveness is highly tied to spanking, and is mostly mental.

Please, tell me I am not sick or weird or bad. I am uncomfortable with this side of myself, but am at the point where I really see it isn’t going away and I might as well embrace it. Now, where it all goes from here, I don’t know. I never in a million years thought I’d ever be writing something like this. I've recently had an experience that, I think, has opened up a whole can of worms for me and there is no going back now.

[web-ed]

I hope some of our other members will chime in, Samantha, but until they do, here are some of the answers you seek.

I have seen or read things online (thank you for the internet for all the things you are teaching me!) where submissive women do things like wear collars and look like they are being seriously injured or sleep in a cage. No judgement at all on my part, but I don’t get the appeal and that is NOT my thing. So, are there different kinds of submissives? There must be, right?

Yes, there are. Submission is the basic fact of female sexuality, but that submission may take myriad forms from regular intercourse to most of the paraphilias you can name. Some of these are fairly mild and easy to understand, like bondage and spanking, while others seem more remote, perhaps more extreme, and definitely harder to comprehend. Let's stick with bondage and spanking here, whose appeal is easy to understand and which many couples have experimented with (I'd guess it was probably something like 50% if we consider bondage and spanking two separate things, and remember that "experiment with" is not the same thing as being deeply into it).

Submissive feelings are complex: a woman wants to submit, but also wants to feel almost as if she were being forced to submit to the male whose power is superior to hers. This is the reason for sexual fantasies involving powerful men (men who are in a position to compel her submission), for bondage (the restraints are "forcing" her to submit), and yes, spanking, where the spanking acts as a kind of substitute for sexual intercourse. How paraphilias come about is complex, and all I'm going to say here is that early experiences cause a kind of parallel track to be created (that is, parallel to intercourse) which provide an alternate path (and outlet) for sexual feelings. (I have elsewhere discounted the idea that people can be "hard wired" this way, and we won't delve further into that question).

Further complicating matters is that women tend to feel guilty about sexual feelings generally, and this is amplified by concerns that their desires may be "weird" in some way, thus we often see that some justification (or really, rationalization) is sought to make a woman feel that it's all right for her to submit.

No, you are not "sick or weird or bad" for even though spanking desires are not precisely normal, neither are they harmful when not taken to extremes, and they are indeed fairly common. But based on what you've related here, it's probably going to be very difficult to get your husband completely on board with this. Spankers come in two broad categories (which I'm still trying to name properly): the "naturals" who have wanted to spank since they were very young, and the "artificials" who learn to enjoy giving a spanking after they reach adulthood. These "converted vanillas" can be very good at spanking - search the internet as you have and you will not doubt find examples of many husbands (and a few wives, but we'll ignore that here as irrelevant) who have learned to enjoy spanking and become good spankers. But there are many others who just can't manage it, for a variety of reasons, and your husband seems to fall into this category.

[samantha]

Ugh. This whole thing is maddening, top to bottom, no pun intended!
All this time, thinking there was something wrong with me, and I mean I really seriously thought there was something wrong with me. I experienced and saw some really disgusting kinds of abuse as a girl and I just assumed that I was resorting to fantasies of spanking and submission to, in some way, avoid being present emotionally during sex with my DH and to kind of re-enact the ways I got negatively imprinted. And being emotionally distant during sex with one's love and re-enacting past pain isn't very healthy. But, sheesh, I could of saved us thousands and thousands of dollars in therapy if I'd just realized that duh, I am submissive by nature. (and WTF, neither therapist even suggested this might be the issue!!!!) Maybe not inherently wired that way (not trying to stir up debate), but this is who I am. It is now totally obvious to me that I resort to fantasy because regular sex and completely equal husband/wife interactions just don't do it for me. I'd give just about anything to make it work for me. I am not trying to avoid intimacy. I am trying to create it, to create intimacy and intensity and the vulnerable feelings I need to really let go.
I recently got my first real spanking from someone other than my DH. I was scared out of my mind. But it turns out, I had nothing to be afraid of. I LOVE the sting. I mean, my god, is there anything better anywhere? I I love being told what to do. I love doing what I am told. In that moment, I would probably do just about anything. It is a kind of alternate reality or something. I find myself wishing for it every single day.
I guess I have to sit my husband down and be like, look guy, you have a wife who really, really loves you. A wife who'd like nothing more if you'd spank her silly at least once a week (oh, please, please!) And if you do, there is nothing she wouldn't do for you and I mean literally nothing. All he has to do is the next time I try to tell him how to drive is, after the kids go to sleep, put me over his knee and tell me to cut it out. Win-win for all involved. And if he can't get on board, I am seriously going to lose my mind. We've joked around about an open marriage, but perhaps I am going to have to bring that up in a more serious fashion if he can't give me what I need. (And yes, I feel like a horrible person for even thinking that and probably, for all my words of bravado, I am not sure I could follow through but it at least feels empowering to write it) l It feels utterly selfish to put it that way, and it doesn't feel like I am being the loving, self sacrificing wife (and I do really believe marriage is about laying down what each person wants for the other, for what's best for the couple) I want to be.

[samantha]

Yeah, okay, having posters remorse. Sometimes I don't think before I write.
I think I have lost my mind. The same woman who was too shy to let any guy kiss her before meeting her husband is now talking about an open marriage? Seriously? What do I think I'd do, go walk up to random men in a bar with my nearly-past-her-shelf-life self and my reserved and quiet persona and ask some strange guy to take me home, spank me and hold me down a little while he does me? I can just picture it and oh, the tragic comedy that would be. I am sure I'd be shaking and crying out of total anxiety and that'd be real attractive....sarcasm intended.
I need to do something and I am fairly sure none of the above are smart choices. Perhaps I should take up running to work off the excess energy?

[samantha]

So, last night a tiny little miracle happened. I had been pushing him away for a week in order to hide my bruising. A week of Arnica gel and, who knew, Prep-H rubbed on the bruising and they were mostly faded. Cover up and semi-darkness makes what is left impossible to see. He wasn't going to take no for an answer any longer. Perhaps to gain my interest, he asks if he can spank me. I agree (of course). He starts. I am BORED and ANNOYED because I can't even hardly feel it. So, I turn my head, see he's enjoying himself and say in the sassiest voice I could conjure up, "you hit like a girl".
He stops mid-spank, chokes a little, and says, "What did you just say?"
"You heard me. You hit like a girl. I can't even feel it. Why bother spanking if I can't feel it?" So now I am goading him. I am laughing as I am saying it so he knows I am not using my criticism to be mean, but rather to get him to ACT--and besides, I felt like I had nothing left to lose. I am having fun now, messing with him this way.
There is silence, a funny kind of edgy laugh on his part and I can hear in his voice behind me that he's a little bit pissed at me. He leans down and says, "you'll tell me if its too hard right?" I nod and then, dear god, the man starts really spanking. It wasn't too bad, just a little stingy, just enough to get me to say ouch but not enough to leave any lasting marks. Which is fine. This is HUGE progress. He decides to start telling me whose in charge, what I am going to do and when and making me tell him what I want. Making me! And other naughty things that I like that I won't recount here.
After, I tell him this is what I have needed from him for years, that I really, really need it, that there is nothing wrong with me and I need a little pain (not a lot) and a lot of dominance with sex. And of course, I expressed my appreciation profusely.
It isn't perfect, but it is progress. I am doubtful he'll ever be able to deliver a punishment with any kind of an implement. That's okay. All I needed was for him to meet me halfway. And maybe he needed me to act differently too, to bring out his latent dominance. Maybe I was guilty of being too nice too? I am going to set aside my perfectionist side and for a little while at least, just be grateful.

[web-ed]

I'm glad to hear you're making progress with your husband at last. Perhaps it won't be necessary for you to get all your spankings outside your marriage after all (that's not exactly an "open marriage" by the way, because no infidelity is involved, and there certainly are married women who can only get the spankings they need from someone other than their husbands).

"You heard me. You hit like a girl. I can't even feel it. Why bother spanking if I can't feel it?" So now I am goading him. I am laughing as I am saying it so he knows I am not using my criticism to be mean, but rather to get him to ACT--and besides, I felt like I had nothing left to lose. I am having fun now, messing with him this way.

I laughed when I read this, Samantha, because what you have just done should be called "releasing your inner brat". Yes, you have discovered the joys of bratting, something which doesn't come naturally to you because you want spanking to be an expression of love. I have called this type of woman "the beloved" to distinguish her from "the brat" and "the penitent", but as a matter of fact, all three generally go together even though one usually predominates. When "the brat" is dominant within the personality, we see an extroverted type who goes to spanking parties and makes bratty posts on spanking boards in order to provoke the resident Tops into threatening to spank her; when "the penitent" is dominant we see someone who seeks real discipline for real offenses; when "the beloved" is dominant we see a quiet, introverted person who sees spanking as an expression of love by her man. It's pretty obvious which type you are, but as I said, all three types are generally found together with one being stronger than the other two. (There is a fourth type, "the sensualist", perhaps the most common of all, but this type doesn't really go together with the other three and I won't explore it further here).

By the way, did you notice the very faint "penitent" within yourself? "All he has to do is the next time I try to tell him how to drive is, after the kids go to sleep, put me over his knee and tell me to cut it out." This is the part of you that occasionally (and secretly, I'm sure) whispers to you that you deserve to get spanked because you did such-and-such.

So important progress has been made. I will suggest again that if it just doesn't sting enough, you "trick" your husband into going harder. One way to do this is with implements that hurt more than he thinks they will. Get a small wood or lexan paddle and at the appropriate time, sit him down, put it in his hand, and turn yourself over his knee. You can wear something thin and stretchy that doesn't give much protection but will keep him from seeing the result until it's all over, when you assure him that it wasn't too hard.

Or if your husband is any sort of a butt-man, perhaps seeing you in a bending-over position will get him going. Proceed as follows:

1. Get a larger paddle ( 5/16 to 3/8" thick if wood, 1/4" if lexan) and a 33" - 36" cane. The cane is to be used if the kids are in the house; the paddle if they're not (they make a lot of noise).
2. Put the implement in his hand.
3. In a spot with plenty of swinging room, bend over and place your hands on or below your knees, keeping your knees straight and arching your back as much as possible. Tell him to give you what you deserve.
4. This ought to get him going! Again, I would suggest wearing stretch pants or something that will keep him from seeing the marks until it's all over and you can reassure him that he didn't hurt you (in a bad way).

If he has trouble using these implements, tell him you love them and tactfully point out my "how to use the paddle, strap, and cane" article so he can learn "advanced techniques" (actually it will be to help him master the basics).

Good luck, and don't blame me if you can't sit down too comfortably immediately afterwards !

[samantha]

I can see that….the whole “beloved” type is me. There is something about hearing that said out loud (or reading it) that makes me feel a little bit lonely or something.
I think the idea of asking him to paddle me over thinner yoga pants is probably a good one so he can’t see the results until later. The kids can go to grandmas for a night. The cane scares me, so at least right now, I won’t be attempting that. And I haven’t seen it mentioned here, but I’ll just put belts in that category. Those cause my anxiety to go sky high and are something I don’t imagine I’ll ever want to try.

I do know what an open marriage/relationship means and I meant it the way it usually means. Between feeling like I missed out in my younger days at experimenting around with what it’d be like to be with different people, feeling some of the lack in my marriage and knowing now that while I CAN separate spanking and sex, I am not sure I want to. I am kind of longing for the whole package of sex, spanking and relationship. And I am tired of always being good and doing the right thing. (that tired of being good thing is a novella in itself so I won’t share that)

I just want to be attended to by someone older/wiser/in charge who can really recognize and deliver what I need. I see some progress in my H, but I also know the entire picture of the last decade and then some—my mood on this changes daily, but deep down, I don’t think he can deliver the whole package.
For once, I’d like to sit in a guy’s lap, have him let me rest my head against his chest, have him tell me all the things he knows about me that I try not to show anyone, have him tell me about rules and boundaries and how he is going to provide me with that kind of security and submit to being spanked by him. And to have love and sex together in that mix. I want to be able to push against that kind of strength without being bratty or bitchy and feel the push back that is firm but doesn’t steamroll me. I am tired of having to have it all together, of having to ensure everything goes just right/on time/etc. I am tired of being the good, low maintenance, calm, take care of everyone else person. I want someone else to do some of that for me.
I don’t really need advice here on this issue. Just being heard is enough. I can continue to piecemeal solutions together, and I likely will just continue to do that. I do feel like a bit of a mess and I am embarrassed to write all this, but for some reason, I can't help myself. I'll wish I hadn't posted this later.

[samantha]

Here's my significant other update: Last night, out of desperation, I got a wooden hairbrush (bought specifically for this purpose), put it in my H's hands, threw myself over his lap and begged him. Yes, I shamelessly begged. He was swatting kind of wildly and quickly and hard and didn't aim very well. He unintentionally hit my upper thighs a bunch of times and hit hard enough for it to hurt pretty badly. I don't think he knew how much it might hurt. I cried some. If he'd gotten my rear instead, I don't think it would've been so bad--and it didn't help that I only had a long t-shirt on, so nothing to provide any protection for my lower half.
This story ends in him saying he'll never, ever spank me ever again for any reason ever. And if I thought there was any hope of changing his mind, that hope ended when he caught sight of my bruised thighs tonight when I was getting pajamas on. Because he feels bad and he's scared, he's upset with me. He even went so far as to tell me he thinks I'm sick for wanting to be spanked. I have a sibling who was severely beaten by our father and my H threw into his tirade tonight that "maybe you got a thrill out of watching that....maybe you wished it was you, because you sure seem to want to be hit pretty badly. Did it turn you on back then?"
I did not need to hear that. He's never spoken like that to me or anything close to it in a dozen years of marriage--he's never ever raised his voice to me, never called me a name, has rarely had an unkind tone in his voice for me. I feel cut to the quick. I am pretty sure he'll apologize tomorrow, but tonight, I feel like crap.

[web-ed]

Sorry to hear that this turned out so badly. Not only was the hairbrushing not done well (the thighs should never be struck in my view, and certainly not with a heavy implement), it appears your husband just isn't up to this. Some men are like that. The reverse happens also, with wives who absolutely cannot abide being spanked and think the husband is sick for wanting to do it. There's an old joke that some people like to sleep with the windows open, while others like to sleep with the windows closed, and each other is whom they marry. But it's not very funny when one partner is left frustrated and the whole relationship is put under a strain.

It does seem like spanking outside the marriage is the only way for you to go. I understand that you don't want the two separated as, for instance, many "penitents" do, preferring the lover and the disciplinarian to be two separate people, but I still think it's best you try to preserve your marriage, which means getting spanked by someone other than your husband.

[samantha]

Um, yeah, not up to it is kind of an understatement. I've been walking around kind of dazed...due to what he said, not the rest. My thighs will recover....my heart, on the other hand, is aching. But, as I must learn, this isn't all about just me. Turns out, this whole thing was kind of an emotional landmine for him, which I did not expect and there were all kinds of irrational doubts going on with him which he wasn't telling me about. While I haven't forgiven him yet....I suppose we'll get there. He knows he can never say anything like that to me again and I know spanking is something that I can't go to him with. Sometimes things kinda suck and we all move on.